There are a few things that annoy me.
One, bad arguments.
Two, Terrible arguments.
Three, people thinking they can speak for me and what I want or believe.
Here is an example of a note I recieved from my best friend, a believer, he is in quotations and I provided answers to what he said just below.
"Thank you for your step by step walk through on how to convert you."
You are welcome.
"I find it interesting, but those are not the things you really want to know."
Just who are you to say what I want? Can you read my mind and tell me, or are you telling me what you think I should want? "I am going to be frank with you."
Then I will be equally frank.
"First I can show you all the proof in the world and it wouldn't matter if you don't really want to know if it is true. I can show you he is real and if you want to find out then you will."
It is the only thing that would change my mind. If you SHOW me and PROVE it like you say you can, I will believe. Because that is being intellectually honest.
"I know that when people don't follow the commandments and don't read or pray etc. it really does effect them."
Sure, I will accept that
"I realize that you Athens don't know who you are."
I thought I was Athens. Please enlighten me.
"And because you don't know yourself that means you are missing a big part of yourself."
Or maybe I know exactly who I am, and Im just missing your point.
"I would look inside yourself to the answers your looking for. Be humble and get on your knees and pray. If you don't want to then ok you are only hurting yourself."
How do you know I have not? It is one of the many things I have done to try to figure out what is going on. The difference is that I did not just look at the shiny side of the coin. You sir have not really studied and considered the alternatives as far as I can tell.
"Its more a pride thing when anyone doesn't pray that is all."
How do I know which god to pray to? I have tried quite a few of them and the results are always about the same as chance.
"I find it easy to define God he is a real person that does know everything. I know he does because I have met him. And yes Athens I have."
This is quite the claim!! Please provide details, how do you know you were not hallucinating? How do you know it was him?
"Look around at all the things we have in this world. The smallest thing to the largest thing all is organized."
What do you mean by organized? Because if I drop six whole eggs in a small pan it will make a very organized pattern. Did god organize them, or does it just have to do with the natural forces acting on them?
"It doesn't take a super smart guy to figure that out. The thing you might be asking yourself is how does he know. I will ask you a question how does salt taste? If you can tell me that then you are amazing."
Salt tastes like salt. There. Im amazing. When the combined sodium and chlorine hit my tongue it has a unique chemical reaction with my saliva and my taste buds send a signal to my brain letting me know that i am tasting what is labelled "salt."
Now consider this. We have a person who can only see in black and white.
How do we prove that color exists? It CAN be demonstrated.
Your salt analogy is a cop out.
"I know you have experienced times in your life when you have felt the savior's love."
How do you know?
"And how do you explain it?"
Just getting a "feeling" does not prove his existence anyway. I may have felt something which I attributed to him, but that does not make him real. Muslims, Hindus, christians etc. all say they feel something like that.
"I know that you want proof about many things. I don't need proof that you are going to read this. I know you will."
Bad analogy. Having a reasonable expectation that I will check comments based on past experience is NOTHING like having hope that your god exists.
"Just like I know God answers prayers, blesses people etc."
Please provide examples and concrete evidence. Also, the result should be repeatable in a controlled environment, we should be able to make accurate predictions based on past experience as well..
"Everything that is written in scripture is physical proof about God."
Everything that is written in the harry potter series is physical proof about wizards?
"Why would so many people for so long write about someone that doesn't exist? That doesn't make sense."
Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, it must be true. (Bandwagon fallacy)
My simple rebuttal, Why would so many people for so long believe in zues if he does not exist? That doesnt make sense.
"Why was this country founded on religious freedom?"
Who told you this tripe? I will simply refer you to this article which may clear things up a bit. http://www.atheist-community.org/faq/#christian_nation
"Why do we have people die in the name of their religion?"
They are called martyrs. Need I remind you of 9/11? It is not necessarily good, nor is it necessarily true.
"I have seen miracles that I know for a fact are true as much as I know you are real."
Again, provide proof.
"I am not here to convert you."
That seems obvious, none of your arguments so far have held much weight.
"And actually I can't and I don't want to because it is not my job."
Oh really? 1 Peter 3. 15.
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."
An Atheist's Analysis of Theism and Gods: How do you justify your beliefs?
(More on the subject ^^^)
"I went on a mission and taught 1000's of people and did I convert one soul. NO. not one. Because it was the person's choice to ask someone they could not see if he existed. And he answers them."
Then why not answer me?
"And to answer your question about the flying spaghetti monster if it exists, sure it does. Take a handful of spaghetti and throw it across the room there is your answer."
Lol
"Athens your my best friend and I know your a wonderful person. I love you like a a brother. I will take a bullet for you any day of the week. I will walk with you to hell and back, just let me know when you want to take a walk. You do have many people who love you."
Daniel, you sir I consider my brother. I will take your bullets, I will walk to metaphorical hell and back. I love you guys too.
Now i know i sound harsh. Some of the things you said kinda coaxed that out of me. Realize that that is not because i wish to offend. It is because i was being frank. I apologize.
-Athens
Showing posts with label knowledge. Show all posts
Showing posts with label knowledge. Show all posts
Monday, October 17, 2011
Sunday, October 16, 2011
How to Convert an Atheist!!
How to convert an Atheist....
As an atheist I thought it would be helpful to give believers a clear step by step method to convert an atheist to their religion.
Why? Is it because i want to be converted? Not necessarily. It is because i'm tired of hearing the traditional and ineffective arguments
and methods for "proving".
The first thing you have to keep in mind is that the whole faith thing is NOT going to work.
So, if you ask us to believe something blindly it ain't gonna happen.
Second, wild and unfounded assertions are things you cannot just throw around and expect us NOT to call you on it.
Stating your argument with a wild assertion as your premise is called "begging the question." and is not the right way to start.
For example, if you tell me that your guardian angel watches over you begs the question, "how do you even know you have a guardian angel." (among other questions.)
There are a few things your rational atheist friend will be looking for.
Step 1. Define "God"
The word 'god' is now so diluted and non specific that you are going to need to clarify that to us first.
Is it a personal being?
Or do you believe that it its the universe itself? If it is the universe, then i believe in it too.. I just call it "universe" not "god".
Step 2. Provide Evidence to Prove Existence.
There have been a few attempts at this thrown my way and all seem to fail. The one I hear most often is what i refer to as the "god of the Gaps" argument.
The theist will point to an area of study or piece of information and point out that we don't know everything about it. Then they insert god into the gap as the solution to the puzzle.
For example, I have been asked, "How did the universe begin its existence?" or "what caused the Big bang?"
When my answer is the honest "I dont know." I am ambushed with the most obnoxious "God did it.". Which is not really a solution, not only that but it again begs a thousand more questions.
Basically what they are saying is that because science does not explain everything perfectly then it must be god. That is a Bad Argument.
Also, it seems degrading to their deity.
Why does he only get sciences leftovers?
Most would say that an Omni-everything being out there who cares about me is an extraordinary claim. I would agree.
Not all claims are created equal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I had a question posed to me the other week by my mom, "How do you know that china exists?"
First let me say that the only thing i know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY is that i exist. Exactly what I am does not matter. It could be that i am a computer program and my life so far is all an illusion.
But from day one i have lived in this particular reality (to the very best of my knowledge.) and it has remained consistent. I have always been subject to gravity. Always. That does not mean that I have ABSOLUTE certainty that it will apply tomorrow, but gravity has a pretty good track record. I can however be certain from a practical standpoint. Based on the past I feel comfortable believing that gravity will continue to work.
Now in answer to my moms question, I believe china exists because i can see photos, detailed records, folklore, language, history, satellite imagery, video, people from china, etc. These are all tangible and plentiful. If I want to be even more sure of it there is a very easy and practical method to finding out. A plane ticket.
She brought up the alternative as well, so let us consider it. All of the preponderance of evidence is forged and fabricated. Which I suppose could be possible, however, does that not sound absurd? Why, first of all would anyone want to invent a continent and let it play such a role in human history if it is not real? Who exactly is in on this practical joke/ cover up effort?
I find this hypothesis to not only lack evidence, but the evidence that china DOES exist is heavily supported.
I believe China exists.
Step 3. Now that you have proven God, Prove your flavor of religion.
Again, support any claims with adequate evidence.
==============================================
That is as far as I think I can go on this guide really.
I am 100% willing to have my mind changed.
Heck, I am even telling you how you can.
-Athens
As an atheist I thought it would be helpful to give believers a clear step by step method to convert an atheist to their religion.
Why? Is it because i want to be converted? Not necessarily. It is because i'm tired of hearing the traditional and ineffective arguments
and methods for "proving".
The first thing you have to keep in mind is that the whole faith thing is NOT going to work.
So, if you ask us to believe something blindly it ain't gonna happen.
Second, wild and unfounded assertions are things you cannot just throw around and expect us NOT to call you on it.
Stating your argument with a wild assertion as your premise is called "begging the question." and is not the right way to start.
For example, if you tell me that your guardian angel watches over you begs the question, "how do you even know you have a guardian angel." (among other questions.)
There are a few things your rational atheist friend will be looking for.
Step 1. Define "God"
The word 'god' is now so diluted and non specific that you are going to need to clarify that to us first.
Is it a personal being?
Or do you believe that it its the universe itself? If it is the universe, then i believe in it too.. I just call it "universe" not "god".
Step 2. Provide Evidence to Prove Existence.
There have been a few attempts at this thrown my way and all seem to fail. The one I hear most often is what i refer to as the "god of the Gaps" argument.
The theist will point to an area of study or piece of information and point out that we don't know everything about it. Then they insert god into the gap as the solution to the puzzle.
For example, I have been asked, "How did the universe begin its existence?" or "what caused the Big bang?"
When my answer is the honest "I dont know." I am ambushed with the most obnoxious "God did it.". Which is not really a solution, not only that but it again begs a thousand more questions.
Basically what they are saying is that because science does not explain everything perfectly then it must be god. That is a Bad Argument.
Also, it seems degrading to their deity.
Why does he only get sciences leftovers?
Most would say that an Omni-everything being out there who cares about me is an extraordinary claim. I would agree.
Not all claims are created equal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I had a question posed to me the other week by my mom, "How do you know that china exists?"
First let me say that the only thing i know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY is that i exist. Exactly what I am does not matter. It could be that i am a computer program and my life so far is all an illusion.
But from day one i have lived in this particular reality (to the very best of my knowledge.) and it has remained consistent. I have always been subject to gravity. Always. That does not mean that I have ABSOLUTE certainty that it will apply tomorrow, but gravity has a pretty good track record. I can however be certain from a practical standpoint. Based on the past I feel comfortable believing that gravity will continue to work.
Now in answer to my moms question, I believe china exists because i can see photos, detailed records, folklore, language, history, satellite imagery, video, people from china, etc. These are all tangible and plentiful. If I want to be even more sure of it there is a very easy and practical method to finding out. A plane ticket.
She brought up the alternative as well, so let us consider it. All of the preponderance of evidence is forged and fabricated. Which I suppose could be possible, however, does that not sound absurd? Why, first of all would anyone want to invent a continent and let it play such a role in human history if it is not real? Who exactly is in on this practical joke/ cover up effort?
I find this hypothesis to not only lack evidence, but the evidence that china DOES exist is heavily supported.
I believe China exists.
Step 3. Now that you have proven God, Prove your flavor of religion.
Again, support any claims with adequate evidence.
==============================================
That is as far as I think I can go on this guide really.
I am 100% willing to have my mind changed.
Heck, I am even telling you how you can.
-Athens
Friday, October 14, 2011
Atheist or agnostic?
This first section is taken straight from the atheist community of austins Q and A section on their website Here
"Q: What's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?
A: It has to do with the difference between what you believe and what you think you know. For any particular god that you can imagine, a "theist" is one who has a belief in that god. In contrast, an "atheist" is one who does not have a belief in the god. A "gnostic" is one who knows about the existence of god and an "agnostic" is one who thinks that god is unknowable.
Notice that the terms "atheist" and "agnostic", by these definitions, are not mutually exclusive. You could be an agnostic atheist, meaning you don't think that the existence of gods is knowable, but you don't choose to believe in one without further proof. Many people assume that atheists believe that gods can be proved not to exist, but this isn't strictly true and there is no proper word to describe this. You could call such a person an "untheist", perhaps. Or, you could just call such a person a "gnostic atheist", one who doesn't believe in a god and thinks that his non-belief can be proved.
So there are four possible ways one could be.
1. Agnostic-Theist: believes god exists, but the existence of a god is unknowable
2. Gnostic-Theist: believes in a god for which he claims knowledge
3. Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe god exists, but it can't be proved
4. Gnostic-Atheist: believes it can be proved that god does not exist
Case 3 is sometimes referred to as "weak atheism" and case 4 is sometimes referred to as "strong atheism". Only strong atheism positively asserts that there are no gods.
Finally, it should be pointed out that when a person is asked about their beliefs and replies that they are agnostic, they are avoiding the question and answering a different one. Someone who can't positively say he/she believes in a god is an atheist."
I think the only thing to add is an answer to the question which am I? I am an agnostic atheist. Because I cannot disprove gods existence I claim no knowledge. But I also say that about the cosmic teapot or the flying spaghetti monster. Which I simply don't believe exist.
"Q: What's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?
A: It has to do with the difference between what you believe and what you think you know. For any particular god that you can imagine, a "theist" is one who has a belief in that god. In contrast, an "atheist" is one who does not have a belief in the god. A "gnostic" is one who knows about the existence of god and an "agnostic" is one who thinks that god is unknowable.
Notice that the terms "atheist" and "agnostic", by these definitions, are not mutually exclusive. You could be an agnostic atheist, meaning you don't think that the existence of gods is knowable, but you don't choose to believe in one without further proof. Many people assume that atheists believe that gods can be proved not to exist, but this isn't strictly true and there is no proper word to describe this. You could call such a person an "untheist", perhaps. Or, you could just call such a person a "gnostic atheist", one who doesn't believe in a god and thinks that his non-belief can be proved.
So there are four possible ways one could be.
1. Agnostic-Theist: believes god exists, but the existence of a god is unknowable
2. Gnostic-Theist: believes in a god for which he claims knowledge
3. Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe god exists, but it can't be proved
4. Gnostic-Atheist: believes it can be proved that god does not exist
Case 3 is sometimes referred to as "weak atheism" and case 4 is sometimes referred to as "strong atheism". Only strong atheism positively asserts that there are no gods.
Finally, it should be pointed out that when a person is asked about their beliefs and replies that they are agnostic, they are avoiding the question and answering a different one. Someone who can't positively say he/she believes in a god is an atheist."
I think the only thing to add is an answer to the question which am I? I am an agnostic atheist. Because I cannot disprove gods existence I claim no knowledge. But I also say that about the cosmic teapot or the flying spaghetti monster. Which I simply don't believe exist.
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