In Response to a Theist...

There are a few things that annoy me.
One, bad arguments.
Two, Terrible arguments.
Three, people thinking they can speak for me and what I want or believe.

Here is an example of a note I recieved from my best friend, a believer, he is in quotations and I provided answers to what he said just below.

"Thank you for your step by step walk through on how to convert you."
You are welcome.

"I find it interesting, but those are not the things you really want to know."
Just who are you to say what I want? Can you read my mind and tell me, or are you telling me what you think I should want? "I am going to be frank with you."
Then I will be equally frank.

"First I can show you all the proof in the world and it wouldn't matter if you don't really want to know if it is true. I can show you he is real and if you want to find out then you will."
It is the only thing that would change my mind. If you SHOW me and PROVE it like you say you can, I will believe. Because that is being intellectually honest.

"I know that when people don't follow the commandments and don't read or pray etc. it really does effect them."
Sure, I will accept that

"I realize that you Athens don't know who you are."
I thought I was Athens. Please enlighten me.

"And because you don't know yourself that means you are missing a big part of yourself."
Or maybe I know exactly who I am, and Im just missing your point.

"I would look inside yourself to the answers your looking for. Be humble and get on your knees and pray. If you don't want to then ok you are only hurting yourself."
How do you know I have not? It is one of the many things I have done to try to figure out what is going on. The difference is that I did not just look at the shiny side of the coin. You sir have not really studied and considered the alternatives as far as I can tell.

"Its more a pride thing when anyone doesn't pray that is all."
How do I know which god to pray to? I have tried quite a few of them and the results are always about the same as chance.

"I find it easy to define God he is a real person that does know everything. I know he does because I have met him. And yes Athens I have."
This is quite the claim!! Please provide details, how do you know you were not hallucinating? How do you know it was him?

"Look around at all the things we have in this world. The smallest thing to the largest thing all is organized."
What do you mean by organized? Because if I drop six whole eggs in a small pan it will make a very organized pattern. Did god organize them, or does it just have to do with the natural forces acting on them?

"It doesn't take a super smart guy to figure that out. The thing you might be asking yourself is how does he know. I will ask you a question how does salt taste? If you can tell me that then you are amazing."
Salt tastes like salt. There. Im amazing. When the combined sodium and chlorine hit my tongue it has a unique chemical reaction with my saliva and my taste buds send a signal to my brain letting me know that i am tasting what is labelled "salt."
Now consider this. We have a person who can only see in black and white.
How do we prove that color exists? It CAN be demonstrated.
Your salt analogy is a cop out.

"I know you have experienced times in your life when you have felt the savior's love."
How do you know?

"And how do you explain it?"
Just getting a "feeling" does not prove his existence anyway. I may have felt something which I attributed to him, but that does not make him real. Muslims, Hindus, christians etc. all say they feel something like that.

"I know that you want proof about many things. I don't need proof that you are going to read this. I know you will."
Bad analogy. Having a reasonable expectation that I will check comments based on past experience is NOTHING like having hope that your god exists.
"Just like I know God answers prayers, blesses people etc."
Please provide examples and concrete evidence. Also, the result should be repeatable in a controlled environment, we should be able to make accurate predictions based on past experience as well..

"Everything that is written in scripture is physical proof about God."
Everything that is written in the harry potter series is physical proof about wizards?

"Why would so many people for so long write about someone that doesn't exist? That doesn't make sense."
Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, it must be true. (Bandwagon fallacy)
My simple rebuttal, Why would so many people for so long believe in zues if he does not exist? That doesnt make sense.

"Why was this country founded on religious freedom?"
Who told you this tripe? I will simply refer you to this article which may clear things up a bit. http://www.atheist-community.org/faq/#christian_nation

"Why do we have people die in the name of their religion?"
They are called martyrs. Need I remind you of 9/11? It is not necessarily good, nor is it necessarily true.

"I have seen miracles that I know for a fact are true as much as I know you are real."
Again, provide proof.
"I am not here to convert you."
That seems obvious, none of your arguments so far have held much weight.

"And actually I can't and I don't want to because it is not my job."
Oh really? 1 Peter 3. 15.
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."
An Atheist's Analysis of Theism and Gods: How do you justify your beliefs?
(More on the subject ^^^)  

"I went on a mission and taught 1000's of people and did I convert one soul. NO. not one. Because it was the person's choice to ask someone they could not see if he existed. And he answers them."
Then why not answer me?

"And to answer your question about the flying spaghetti monster if it exists, sure it does. Take a handful of spaghetti and throw it across the room there is your answer."
Lol
"Athens your my best friend and I know your a wonderful person. I love you like a a brother. I will take a bullet for you any day of the week. I will walk with you to hell and back, just let me know when you want to take a walk. You do have many people who love you."
Daniel, you sir I consider my brother. I will take your bullets, I will walk to metaphorical hell and back. I love you guys too.


Now i know i sound harsh. Some of the things you said kinda coaxed that out of me. Realize that that is not because i wish to offend. It is because i was being frank. I apologize.

-Athens

How to Convert an Atheist!!

How to convert an Atheist....


As an atheist I thought it would be helpful to give believers a clear step by step method to convert an atheist to their religion.
Why? Is it because i want to be converted? Not necessarily. It is because i'm tired of hearing the traditional and ineffective arguments
and methods for "proving".


The first thing you have to keep in mind is that the whole faith thing is NOT going to work.
So, if you ask us to believe something blindly it ain't gonna happen.
Second, wild and unfounded assertions are things you cannot just throw around and expect us NOT to call you on it.
Stating your argument with a wild assertion as your premise is called "begging the question." and is not the right way to start.
For example, if you tell me that your guardian angel watches over you begs the question, "how do you even know you have a guardian angel." (among other questions.)

There are a few things your rational atheist friend will be looking for.

Step 1. Define "God"

The word 'god' is now so diluted and non specific that you are going to need to clarify that to us first.
Is it a personal being?
Or do you believe that it its the universe itself? If it is the universe, then i believe in it too.. I just call it "universe" not "god".


Step 2. Provide Evidence to Prove Existence.

There have been a few attempts at this thrown my way and all seem to fail. The one I hear most often is what i refer to as the "god of the Gaps" argument.
The theist will point to an area of study or piece of information and point out that we don't know everything about it. Then they insert god into the gap as the solution to the puzzle.
For example, I have been asked, "How did the universe begin its existence?" or "what caused the Big bang?"
When my answer is the honest "I dont know." I am ambushed with the most obnoxious "God did it.". Which is not really a solution, not only that but it again begs a thousand more questions.
Basically what they are saying is that because science does not explain everything perfectly then it must be god. That is a Bad Argument.
Also, it seems degrading to their deity.
Why does he only get sciences leftovers?

Most would say that an Omni-everything being out there who cares about me is an extraordinary claim. I would agree.
Not all claims are created equal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I had a question posed to me the other week by my mom, "How do you know that china exists?"
First let me say that the only thing i know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY is that i exist. Exactly what I am does not matter. It could be that i am a computer program and my life so far is all an illusion.
But from day one i have lived in this particular reality (to the very best of my knowledge.) and it has remained consistent. I have always been subject to gravity. Always. That does not mean that I have ABSOLUTE certainty that it will apply tomorrow, but gravity has a pretty good track record. I can however be certain from a practical standpoint. Based on the past I feel comfortable believing that gravity will continue to work.

Now in answer to my moms question, I believe china exists because i can see photos, detailed records, folklore, language, history, satellite imagery, video, people from china, etc. These are all tangible and plentiful. If I want to be even more sure of it there is a very easy and practical method to finding out. A plane ticket.
She brought up the alternative as well, so let us consider it. All of the preponderance of evidence is forged and fabricated. Which I suppose could be possible, however, does that not sound absurd? Why, first of all would anyone want to invent a continent and let it play such a role in human history if it is not real? Who exactly is in on this practical joke/ cover up effort?
I find this hypothesis to not only lack evidence, but the evidence that china DOES exist is heavily supported.
I believe China exists.

Step 3. Now that you have proven God, Prove your flavor of religion.

Again, support any claims with adequate evidence.

==============================================

That is as far as I think I can go on this guide really.
I am 100% willing to have my mind changed.
Heck, I am even telling you how you can.



-Athens

Book review: "Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary"

I stumbled upon an ebook yesterday and it really stole my attention. I downloaded the free sample and I was hooked. It seemed to me that the feelings that I have had while giving up faith have been put into words as if I had written them myself. There are a few minor differences in both our journeys and our way of thinking yet the essence is still there. There are many who have asked me what exactly made me "leave God" and I never had quite the right answer. Yet in this short look into a former missionarys journey to atheism the words are formed perfectly. There are many family members and friends who would like to know why I disbelieve and how I got here; This book explains it almost exactly. It feels like I wrote it in a parallel universe and I have discovered my own writings. It is not an attack on religion, but he will call a spade a spade. There are things that may seem harsh but are not there to offend. It is not rudeness but candor. It is the first on my recommended reading list, and you can download a free 34 page sample from the link below but it is well worth the $0.99 to buy the whole book. It's 3 in the morning. I couldn't put it down. Check it out.

Interesting questions.

I have been getting quite a few emails with quite a few more questions in them. Since I have a hard time replying to all of them I thought I would address the most common ones in my next blog post. Please send me an email with questions and the top ten will certainly get an answer. Send email to sciencebuff1@yahoo.com or just send me a message on Facebook V4Z2TCE3B7ZB Ps. Thanks for all of the feedback. It has surely helped.

Atheist or agnostic?

This first section is taken straight from the atheist community of austins Q and A section on their website Here

"Q: What's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?

A: It has to do with the difference between what you believe and what you think you know. For any particular god that you can imagine, a "theist" is one who has a belief in that god. In contrast, an "atheist" is one who does not have a belief in the god. A "gnostic" is one who knows about the existence of god and an "agnostic" is one who thinks that god is unknowable.

Notice that the terms "atheist" and "agnostic", by these definitions, are not mutually exclusive. You could be an agnostic atheist, meaning you don't think that the existence of gods is knowable, but you don't choose to believe in one without further proof. Many people assume that atheists believe that gods can be proved not to exist, but this isn't strictly true and there is no proper word to describe this. You could call such a person an "untheist", perhaps. Or, you could just call such a person a "gnostic atheist", one who doesn't believe in a god and thinks that his non-belief can be proved.

So there are four possible ways one could be.

1. Agnostic-Theist: believes god exists, but the existence of a god is unknowable
2. Gnostic-Theist: believes in a god for which he claims knowledge
3. Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe god exists, but it can't be proved
4. Gnostic-Atheist: believes it can be proved that god does not exist

Case 3 is sometimes referred to as "weak atheism" and case 4 is sometimes referred to as "strong atheism". Only strong atheism positively asserts that there are no gods.

Finally, it should be pointed out that when a person is asked about their beliefs and replies that they are agnostic, they are avoiding the question and answering a different one. Someone who can't positively say he/she believes in a god is an atheist."

I think the only thing to add is an answer to the question which am I? I am an agnostic atheist. Because I cannot disprove gods existence I claim no knowledge. But I also say that about the cosmic teapot or the flying spaghetti monster. Which I simply don't believe exist.

The ten commandments of logical fallacies.

I would like to present to you The 10 Commandments of Logical Fallacies. These are things I come across regularly in conversation with believers. They are quite annoying to those who recognize them. I did not invent them, nor did I create this list. However I thought it was quite good so I am using them for this article. (They come from Bluedorn, Hans, and Nathaniel Bluedorn. The Fallacy Detective: Thirty-Eight Lessons on How to Recognize Bad Reasoning. 3rd ed. Colombus, Ohio: Christian Logic, 2009. Print.)

So without further ado, here they are.

1. Thou shall not attack the person's character, but the argument. (Ad hominem)

2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person's argument in order to make them easier to attack. (Straw man fallacy)

3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (Hasty generalization)

4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true. (Begging the question)

5. Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause. (Post Hoc/False cause)

6. Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities. (False dichotomy)

7. Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false. (Ad ignorantum)

8. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal)

9. Thou shall not assume "this" follows "that" when it has no logical connection. (Non sequitur)

10. Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, therefore it must be true. (Bandwagon fallacy)

Note: When you hear one these commandments being broken, you must proclaim the commandment to the offender - in the most Charlton Heston-esque voice you can muster.

Learn these, know them and you will find them everywhere. I hear them all of the time.
Quite honestly I am just sick of hearing some of them. Just make sure that when you present an argument you do so with logic. Because logically it's the right way. :)

Some quick thoughts on morality.

I was chatting with a friend recently when the bible came into the conversation. I asked him what he thought of the bible, did he believe it all to be true and literal, or is it just interesting reading? He had a response that irritated me a bit. He told me it was simply a good moral guide. I will admit that I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to that statement because I have read a lot of the bible and there are some things in there that I find to be atrocious. I pointed that out and he explained that not all of the bible should be used as a moral guide, however he didn't really give any details that would tell me which parts of the bible to listen to or not.
As it turned out, from a little bit of digging, he admitted that he didn't really get his morality from the bible. He got it from his own moral standard. That is how he knew what stories to label as 'moral' and what stories to simply ignore.
Anyone who has read the bible knows some of the many stories of immoral acts portrayed therein, and very few take ALL of them literally.
Why? Because they don't actually get their moral code from the bible anyway.

This brings another interesting thought to mind. When I was still a believer I would occasionally say that I was happy that I was born into the church because I thought that If I had been raised atheist, I would be some kind of psychopath killer, and I would not be moral at all. I think the reason I thought this was mainly philosophical. I thought that if there were no god and no afterlife, there would be no consequences and no impact because life on the planet will end completely someday. So nothing I could do would matter.
Later I came to the realization that I don't believe in god. It was not a choice, it was a realization. Once I did realize that, I thought about what I had said before and realized that it was totally wrong and foolish. I cannot divorce myself from my morality which is engrained just because it isn't going to matter. I cannot kill anybody and I was fooling myself when I said I could.
I would argue that I am MORE moral than I was before, my choices are now a product of looking at the consequences for myself and others, and making the choice that does the least damage. I no longer think homosexuals are evil, I no longer believe that they are making any kind of choice as to their sexuality. I cannot choose to be attracted to the villain octopus from little mermaid and make it true. I don't hold all of the same prejudices that I did before, I dont do things with the intent to make up for it later. I'm a better person all around because my mind has been opened.
Just some thoughts to meditate on. Enjoy.
Athens.

Pews vs pen?!

Yesterday I caught wind of a news story which made me cringe. In Bay Minette Ala. There is a new program for Non-violent, first offenders that gives them the choice between time in jail, and a year of church attendance. The justification they proposed was just as ridiculous, they decided that sending first offenders to church would give them the moral outline that they seemed to be missing. As if the only place to get your morality was in church. Not only is that completely incorrect, but it clearly violates the first amendment. By giving them the choice between a correctional facility and a church places them on equal ground and gives the impression that the state endorses church attendance.
The defense provided to this criticism was that it was completely up to the offender which choice they went with. REALLY?!! Olivia Turner of the ACLU puts it simply, “There isn’t a real choice here,” she said. “This policy completely entangles government with religion, and is an abuse of power because it coerces people into religious exercise.”
It's not a real choice, I as an atheist would choose to go to church, because if I do they will DISMISS my case. There should be, in my opinion, a third choice. That is a secular program including counseling, and other support.
In short, we don't need fairy tales to fix people. Religion does not provide morals, they are a product of our social nature as a species. The main point though is that it is a violation of church state separation.
IT NEEDS TO END.

Pews vs pen?!

Interesting statistics.

I find it of particular interest to look at the poll which I put on the left hand side of my blog. It was a simple question of belief in a god or gods. What I find quite interesting about it is the fact that the percentages of people who said yes or no are almost identical to several studies I have looked at.
Approximately 15-20 percent of people in America do not associate with any particular religion and either do not believe that there is a god, or they do not know. An overwhelming number of participants in this study professed to being Christian. Of course Christian in this instance is used as a blanket term to include the many differing sects. There was a small remainder who were of other faiths, within a few percent.

Bring this up because it is something that theists bring up quite often. It is a clear logical fallacy known as an appeal to popularity. There are several situations I'm sure we have all come across at some point that deal with this in some way. Maybe as a teenager some of us wanted to go to a party, or participate in some activity, and our parents said no. Inevitably it seems the response is "But everyone else is going!" and the rebuttal I'm sure we all heard, "if all of them jumped off of a bridge....".
We know that just because there are lots of people who believe that we never went to the moon does not make it true. It is the same with religion. The idea that just because lots of people read and accept the bible makes it somehow more credible is just as crazy.
On a smaller scale we can still see this, "my parents believe it, and i trust them, so it is probably true.". This is very similar to 80% of a population believing, but is different on an emotional level. It may be difficult for some to have different beliefs than their parents because of some of the potential emotional consequences. That still does not make it true.

My only advice then is to look at it for yourself and think critically of even what I say. It is up to you to discover what you really believe is true. Not a populace, not an authority, just you.

ATHENS

Hello!!

I am an award winning robot designer, I have worked in nanotechnology, I have beaten chessmasters and won tournaments. So I am a bit of a Nerd. I have some awesome parents,two brothers and a sister. I love to have fun with my buddies and just hang out. I am happy with the way things are.
My name is Athens, and im an atheist.

I am sure you have seen an ad either on youtube or elsewhere on the internet that was just like this. The only difference being that they are videos made by Mormons. That is why I chose the format that I did. I am an ex-mormon, I grew up in a mormon home with mormon parents and friends, and everything that they taught I took for truth.

Indoctrination is very heavy and clever in the mormon church, you grow up singing songs such as "jesus wants me for a sunbeam" among others, and are taught never to question the leaders of the church. As a child you are encouraged to get up on the podium and tell people that you believe in the church, the prophets, god, and that it is the only true church on earth.

The key to my escape was skepticism. I was first a magician/con-artist, then I was a chess player, then I was a skeptic, then I was an atheist. The magician/con-artist angle really helped me to see that sometimes the coin has heads on both sides, I learned how and why people will trick you into believing something. Becoming a chess player helped me to realize that I needed to analyze not just one or two paths, or ways of thinking, but all of them. Skepticism about things like homeopathy and other ridiculous claims helped me to cement in my mind what is required to determine what is real. My atheism springs from those things. It is not a choice to disbelieve. I cannot bring myself to believe it without real evidence.

That is a brief history of my de-conversion, as some call it, and I will be using this blog to talk about issues that relate to religion which affect everyone. People act on their beliefs, and sometimes they need to be brought into discussion and debated. There are two sides to a fair coin, and I am on the other side.

Fair warning though.. I may be especially harsh on mormons, but MORE harsh on morons.

ATHENS.